HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes - 12/16/2021 - Police Pension Board1 BEFORE THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
MC HENRY POLICE PENSION FUND
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF THE )
DISABILITY APPLICATION OF: )
4 )
ROBERT J. LUMBER, )
5 )
Applicant. )
6
7 REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS taken at the Hearing
8 of the above-entitled cause, held on Thursday, the
9 16th day of December, 2021, at the hour of 9:00
10 A.M., at the McHenry Police Department, reported
11 by GLORIA APOSTOLOS SIOLIDIS, CSR License No.
12 084-001205, duly qualified and commissioned for the
13 State of Illinois.
14 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:
15 MS. LAURA GOODLOE, Hearing Officer.
16 MR. JEFFREY FOERSTER, Chairman.
17 MR. ROBERT BEAUDOIN, Member.
18 MR. NICHOLAS CLESEN, Member.
19 MR. THOMAS SETTLES, Member.
20 MS. CHERYL KRANZ, Member.
21
22 MR. PATRICK J. QUILTY, appeared on behalf of the
23 Applicant.
24 OFFICER ROBERT J. LUMBER, Applicant.
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1 MS. GOODLOE: I'll do the roll call for the
2 record. Trustee Beaudoin?
3 MR. BEAUDOIN: Here.
4 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Clesen?
5 MR. CLESEN: Here.
6 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Foerster?
7 MR. FOERSTER: Here.
8 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Settles?
9 MR. SETTLES: Here.
10 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Kranz?
11 MS. KRANZ: Here.
12 MS. GOODLOE: Also present is Board
13 Attorney, Laura Goodloe, the applicant in this
14 matter, Robert Lumber, and his counsel, Patrick
15 Quilty.
16 MR. FOERSTER: So the first order of
17 business is to appoint a Hearing Officer, and I
18 would entertain a motion that we appoint Laura
19 Goodloe as the Board Hearing Officer this morning.
20 MR. SETTLES: So motion.
21 MR. FOERSTER: Is there a second?
22 MS. KRANZ: Second.
23 MR. FOERSTER: Moved by Tom, seconded by
24 Cheryl. Any discussion? All in favor signify by
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1 saying aye.
2 (All responded aye.)
3 MS. GOODLOE: Opposed?
4 (No response.)
5 MR. FOERSTER: Okay, Laura. It's all you.
6 MS. GOODLOE: This is a hearing that's
7 being conducted pursuant to Article III of the
8 Illinois Pension Code to adjudicate the disability
9 claim of Robert Lumber, the applicant in this case.
10 The applicant was previously sent a
11 Notice of Hearing advising him of his right to be
12 presented by legal counsel, to present evidence,
13 and respond to any evidence before the McHenry
14 Police Pension Board.
15 Will the applicant and his attorney
16 please identify themselves for the record?
17 MR. LUMBER: Robert J. Lumber, L-u-m-b-e-r.
18 MR. QUILTY: Patrick Quilty, Q-u-i-l-t-y.
19 MS. GOODLOE: And Mr. Lumber, did you
20 receive and acknowledge Notice of these proceedings
21 and are you willing to proceed today?
22 MR. LUMBER: Yes, I am.
23 MS. GOODLOE: Thank you.
24 The procedures to be utilized in this
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1 case are as follows:
2 Number 1. Under the law, the applicant
3 bears the burden of proving his entitlement to
4 disability pension.
5 Number 2. The Board will read into the
6 record certain documentation that it intends on
7 introducing into evidence in this hearing.
8 Number 3. The applicant and his
9 attorney may present any objections to the Pension
10 Board's proposed exhibits.
11 Number 4. The Pension Board, upon
12 advice of its legal counsel, may then rule upon
13 those objections.
14 Number 5. The applicant may then
15 proceed with entering additional evidence into the
16 record and continue with an opening statement,
17 followed by witness testimony in support of his
18 disability claim.
19 Number 6. The Board and/or its legal
20 counsel may then ask applicant's witnesses
21 questions, and thereafter may be given the
22 opportunity to call witnesses on its own behalf.
23 Number 7. Rulings on all legal matter
24 will be made by the Hearing Officer in this case.
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1 Number 8. In the event that this
2 hearing may not be completed on this date, the
3 matter shall be continued from time to time to
4 dates agreeable amongst all parties until it is
5 completed. If the hearing is continued to a later
6 date and time, the Board reserves the right to call
7 or recall witnesses for further testimony.
8 Number 9. At the conclusion of the
9 hearing, the applicant or his attorney may make a
10 closing statement.
11 Number 10. The Board may adjourn into
12 executive session pursuant to either 2(c)(4) or
13 2(c)(11) of the Open Meetings Act.
14 Number 11. The Board will render a
15 written decision that will become the final
16 appealable decision in this claim.
17 And finally, number 12 under the
18 Appellate Court case Howe, the written decision
19 will need to be accepted and approved at a
20 subsequent Pension Board Meeting.
21 As a reminder for the Trustees, during
22 this hearing, it's important for all parties to
23 keep in mind that this is an administrative pension
24 proceeding; it is not a partisan proceeding with
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1 the agency on one side and against the applicant on
2 the other. Rather, this should be considered an
3 administrative investigation instituted for
4 purposes of ascertaining and admitting findings of
5 fact.
6 The Rules of Evidence are to be relaxed
7 in an administrative setting such as this; however,
8 the hearsay rules and rules of fundamental fairness
9 shall remain strictly intact.
10 Furthermore, it shall be noted that all
11 Article 3 Pension Trustees are presumed to be
12 objective and capable of fairly judging any
13 particular disability claim before them.
14 Any Trustee who feels incapable of
15 performing his or her duties in an objective manner
16 today should respectfully recuse themselves.
17 At this time I would like to insure
18 that we have an objective Committee here before us
19 today. I'd like all the Trustees to state on the
20 record that they can be objective and do not wish
21 to recuse themselves today.
22 Trustee Kranz?
23 MS. KRANZ: Yes.
24 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Settles?
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1 MR. SETTLES: Yes.
2 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Foerster?
3 MR. FOERSTER: Yes.
4 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Clesen?
5 MR. CLESEN: Yes.
6 MS. GOODLOE: And Trustee Beaudoin?
7 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes.
8 MS. GOODLOE: Are there any questions
9 before we begin? Hearing none, we'll proceed with
10 the entry of the Pension Board exhibits into the
11 administrative record.
12 Previously tendered to both the Pension
13 Board and the applicant and his attorney were
14 proposed Pension Board exhibits marked No. 1
15 through 15. Counsel for the applicant, do you have
16 any objections with respect to the entry of these
17 exhibits into the administrative record today?
18 MR. QUILTY: None, whatsoever.
19 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. Therefore, Pension
20 Board Exhibit No. 1 through 15 are hereby entered
21 into the administrative record.
22 Mr. Quilty, do you have any additional
23 exhibits you wish to enter?
24 MR. QUILTY: No.
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1 MS. GOODLOE: Okay, great. You may now
2 proceed with an opening statement.
3 MR. QUILTY: I'll waive the opening
4 statement.
5 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. You can proceed with
6 your first witness.
7 MR. QUILTY: May we have Bob sworn in?
8 THE COURT REPORTER: Raise your right hand,
9 please.
10 (The oath was thereupon duly
11 administered to the witness by
12 the Notary.)
13 ROBERT J. LUMBER,
14 Called as a witness herein, having been first duly
15 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
16 EXAMINATION
17 By: Mr. Quilty
18 Q State your full name and spell it for the
19 record, please.
20 A Robert J. Lumber, L-u-m-b-e-r.
21 Q And where do you live and who do you live
22 there with?
23 A I live at 1614 Tyler Trail in McHenry,
24 60051, with my wife Christine Lumber and currently
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1 with my son, Timothy Lumber.
2 Q How old is Timothy?
3 A He is 19.
4 Q And do you have any other children?
5 A I do have a daughter, Allison, who is 22.
6 Q I'm going to direct your attention back to
7 July 29th, 1994. Do you recall that date?
8 A I do.
9 Q And what is the significance of that date?
10 A That was the day I was hired here at the
11 McHenry Police Department.
12 Q Now, was that a probationary appointment or
13 full-time appointment?
14 A It was probationary; 15 months I think.
15 Q And on October 29th, 1995, would it be fair
16 to describe it as you were off as a Probationary
17 Officer and a full-time Police Officer?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Now, prior to July 29, '94, had you worked
20 as a Police Officer anywhere, like I said, prior to
21 '94?
22 A I had.
23 Q And where was that?
24 A Village of Round Lake Police Department.
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1 Q And when did you start there, if you
2 recall?
3 A I started there on July 30th, 1992. And
4 then left there, it would have been days just
5 before I came to McHenry.
6 Q Now, what was your job description when you
7 were at Round Lake.
8 A I was a part-time Police Officer.
9 Q And what does part-time Police Officer
10 mean?
11 A It's all the same duties as a normal Police
12 Officer, you're just doing work part-time. I would
13 think I would work a couple weekends or something
14 like that, maybe 15 to 20 hours a week.
15 Q Now, when you got hired by McHenry, I
16 assume they had you take a physical fitness test,
17 correct?
18 A There were a couple of them given. When I
19 first got hired, during the hiring process was one
20 set of tests that they did, and then when you
21 started the academy, there was the state. Two
22 totally different tests with different things you
23 had to do. So there were actually two physical
24 fitness tests.
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1 Q And to summarize, one at the Police
2 Academy, and then another one with the specific
3 department of McHenry?
4 A Other way around, actually. The first one
5 was just through here for the hiring process, and
6 then when you go to the Academy, there's another
7 one that was done there.
8 Q And did you pass both those tests?
9 A I did.
10 Q Now, I'm going to direct your attention to
11 March 9th of 2020. Do you recall that date?
12 A I do.
13 Q And you were employed by the City of
14 McHenry?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And what was your rank at that time?
17 A Sergeant.
18 Q And on that specific date, are you required
19 to wear a uniform, drive a marked squad?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, specifically, were you directed to a
22 call around 9:30 that evening?
23 A I was.
24 Q And can you tell the Board what the call,
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1 dispatch call was to you and what were your
2 actions?
3 A The call was similar to an out of control
4 subject that was overdosing on LSD. It was the
5 3600 block of James Street, which is just off of
6 Green Street, in the apartments. The caller was a
7 young girl who had said her boyfriend was
8 overdosing or tripping on acid and out of control.
9 Q Were you by yourself in the squad at that
10 time?
11 A I my squad, yes.
12 Q Was there somebody else assigned to that
13 specific area of the town that responds to it
14 first, or do you go? Describe how it works.
15 A Sure. There are officers who are divided
16 up into different areas, so yes, there's a primary
17 officer. There's often times a cover car that can
18 cover any area.
19 Myself, as the Sergeant, I have to go
20 through the whole town. I'm not assigned to a
21 particular area.
22 So on that call, I know that -- I don't
23 remember who the exact area cars were at the time.
24 I know Officer Voelker went to the call, Officer
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1 Megan Carey went to the call, and then I responded
2 to the call. I was right down the road.
3 Q Were you the third Officer to arrive?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q If you recall?
6 A I don't remember. I know we all went in at
7 the same time, I think, if I remember correctly.
8 We all got there pretty much at the same time and
9 all went in about the same time.
10 Q What did you observe when you arrived at
11 that location?
12 A There were two young teenage girls in the
13 living room. They directed us to one of the back
14 bedrooms. So we went back there. There was a male
15 Hispanic subject about 20 years, old and he was
16 behaving exactly as it was reported. He was
17 absolutely out of control, literally throwing
18 himself up against the wall, talking in gibberish;
19 for lack of a better term, just hallucinating. He
20 was just completely out of control.
21 Q When you walked into that room, did he at
22 any time respond to what you were trying to do, or
23 trying to calm him down?
24 A He would respond a little bit. He would
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1 respond, but his responses would be unresponsive.
2 We would ask him a particular question, he would
3 respond in gibberish. So he was hearing us in what
4 we were saying, but he wasn't necessarily answering
5 any of the questions we were asking him.
6 His bed consisted of a pillow-top
7 mattress that was on the floor and he was on the
8 pillow-top mattress jumping up and down and he
9 would throw himself into the wall.
10 So to answer your question, he would
11 respond, but not directly with full capacity.
12 Q What did you do?
13 A Officer Voelker and I primarily were the
14 first two standing in there. I think Officer Carey
15 was behind us. And we were just trying to
16 basically talk him down and trying to keep him down
17 until the ambulance got there.
18 We knew there was an ambulance
19 en route. We knew they were the ones with the
20 sedatives. So we were trying to keep him somewhat
21 subdued and not lashing out at us until the
22 ambulance got there, and then we knew we would
23 probably have to go hands-on with him at that time.
24 We would have to at least take some sort of
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1 physical contact with him to control him. But we
2 were waiting for the ambulance to get there to do
3 that.
4 Q So you had no physical contact with him at
5 that point?
6 A At that point we did not.
7 Q When did the physical contact start? Can
8 you describe it for the Board?
9 A We heard the ambulance go on scene. We
10 heard them coming up the staircase.
11 Officer Voelker then asked him to calm
12 down and asked him if we could put handcuffs on him
13 to try and just protect and control him. He didn't
14 have a problem with that. He put his hands out in
15 front. We were able to get one handcuff on one,
16 and then after that, the fight was on. He didn't
17 want anything to do with it. And we had to try and
18 control him at that point.
19 Q Now, we all know what the fight was on
20 means, but we weren't there, so describe what
21 happened. Did he take a swing at you first? Did
22 you guys grab him? Describe as best you can.
23 A Sure. We were able to, as I said, we got
24 the one handcuff on. I was able I think to get the
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1 other hand and get in front. We were able to get
2 him handcuffed in front at least. We couldn't get
3 them locked so that they wouldn't keep tightening,
4 but we were at least able to get handcuffs on him.
5 We then wrestled him down onto the top
6 of his bed. He kept trying to push us off. Myself
7 and Officer Voelker then got on top of him and did
8 our best just to maintain through body weight and
9 different pressure points, whatever, to keep him
10 down on the mattress so he couldn't get up and take
11 more aggressive action towards us.
12 Q How long did this go on?
13 A The whole event, between the time we put
14 handcuffs on him and the time we got him into the
15 ambulance, was probably about 30 minutes.
16 Q Now, when you said you guys were trying to
17 wrestle him down onto the bed that he had had on
18 the floor, as you described it, was he on his back?
19 Was he on his front?
20 A He was on his front. He was on his
21 stomach. His hands were under him.
22 He had almost ridiculous strength. At
23 one point he did a push-up on a pillow-top mattress
24 handcuffed in front with me and Officer Voelker on
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1 top of him.
2 He was just continuing to fight very
3 aggressively; a very strong young man.
4 So through most of that time it was any
5 time he tried to get up, we'd have to try pressure
6 points or hit different nerve points in his arms
7 trying to get him back down. So much of that time
8 was spent him trying to get up and us trying to
9 keep him back down and secured on the mattress.
10 Q As best as you can guess, how big was he?
11 A He wasn't -- he was probably maybe 5'9",
12 185 pounds, something like that. He was very
13 well-built. There were free weights all around his
14 bed in the room that we were stumbling and tripping
15 over at the same time. So he obviously worked out.
16 So he was pretty well-built, but not a giant.
17 Q Now, you finally got him down, as you said,
18 face-first would be the correct way to describe it?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And what happened after? Was he swinging
21 his elbows? Was he kicking? Exactly what was he
22 doing?
23 A He would kick with his feet. His feet were
24 still free. His arms were pretty well secure, but
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1 again, he could still push himself up. So with his
2 feet he would kick.
3 I should back up. Prior to us getting
4 handcuffs on him even, he had taken all of his
5 clothes off, so he was naked as we were trying to
6 go down and get him.
7 At one point he grabbed his penis and
8 tried pulling his penis off. So he was totally
9 naked on the bed and we were on top of him.
10 And an ambulance then arrives. And
11 through the course of their procedures, they had to
12 get approval to even give a sedative first. So
13 we're fighting with him through all that time.
14 And then they finally get approval, and
15 it took three doses of sedatives. And they had to
16 be spaced at least five minutes apart before he
17 finally calmed down and subdued enough to where we
18 could get him wrapped up and out of the room.
19 Q When he was given the sedatives, was that
20 by the EMTs?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Was he face-first by the bed, or however
23 you described it?
24 A Yes, he was.
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1 Q And where was the sedatives administered;
2 the arm, the shoulder?
3 A No. That was actually the one thing that
4 was in our favor was that he didn't have any
5 clothes on; his buttocks was right there, and they
6 could inject it right into his rear-end. That's
7 one of the things that was in our favor.
8 Q I'm going to ask you a question, the Board
9 Members may have, too. How did he get his clothes
10 off?
11 A He just took them off. When we got
12 there --
13 Q When you were wrestling with him, or prior?
14 A No, it was before then. That's why I kind
15 of went back and set up.
16 He did not have a shirt on when we got
17 in there. I don't think he had socks or shoes. He
18 was just wearing shorts. And before the ambulance
19 even got there, and before we even put handcuffs on
20 him, he had stripped his shorts off. So he was
21 naked when the ambulance got there. We only put
22 the handcuffs on him.
23 Q Now, you had said there were two officers
24 and yourself and someone else that made the effort
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1 to subdue him?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was there anyone else joined in with the
4 two of you to help?
5 A No. Officer Carey was there, but we felt
6 we were on him and had the weight on him, had the
7 pressure on him. We didn't want to get off and let
8 that off. So she was there, but she didn't partake
9 in the actual combat.
10 Q Anyone that came with the ambulance,
11 anybody assist you in trying to subdue him when
12 they arrived?
13 A It's possible. I don't specifically
14 remember. It would have been maybe his feet,
15 trying to keep his feet from kicking or something.
16 One of the ambulance crew may have helped out with
17 that, but I don't specifically remember that.
18 Q Now, he's taken and put in the ambulance.
19 Is he arrested at that point, or is he taken to the
20 hospital or taken to the station? Can you describe
21 what happened?
22 A Sure. After the sedatives took effect, the
23 ambulance has a device that's around piece of
24 white, I don't know what it's made out of, but they
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1 put him in it and then they can wrap him up in it.
2 It's almost like a big straightjacket. So he goes
3 in that. It has handles on it. So then myself and
4 Officer Voelker assisted them in getting him
5 secured and lifting him up and taking him down the
6 stairs to the ambulance.
7 Q So you and Voelker, he was in this, as you
8 described it, straightjacket, and you carried him
9 down the stairs?
10 A Yes. It's like not really a straight-
11 jacket. I've never seen it before, to be honest
12 with you, in the amount of years. It's kind of a
13 new device, a big, round piece of almost plastic,
14 and you wrap him up in it. It kind of looks like a
15 burrito when he's all wrapped up and tight in
16 there. And there's handles on it, and you could
17 lift the handles and carry it down.
18 Q How many steps did you have to take it
19 down?
20 A Oh, there's at least 15, I would think.
21 Q And you get him down to the landing area
22 for the steps and then you have to take him out to
23 the ambulance?
24 A They had the gurney at the bottom of the
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1 stairs, so I think we just put him on the gurney
2 and they wheeled him and he went to the hospital.
3 Q Now, at some point is he placed under
4 arrest?
5 A No.
6 Q Was he ever placed under arrest?
7 A No, he was not.
8 Q Now, after this all happened, can you
9 describe how you felt at this time in reference to
10 any type of pain, whether it be being your back,
11 your legs or whatever?
12 A Sure. At that time that night I didn't
13 have any pain. It was just a large amped-up
14 Adrenalin dump for the next couple hours until
15 things calmed down. I didn't have any specific
16 pain that night when it happened.
17 Q Now, what was your shift that day when were
18 you getting off?
19 A At Midnight.
20 Q Did you get off at Midnight?
21 A Yes.
22 Q After you dealt with this individual and
23 before you got off at Midnight, did you have any
24 other altercations or any physical demands made
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1 upon you as acting as a Police Officer?
2 A No, I did not.
3 As a matter of fact, after that call, I
4 went right back to the Police Department, went back
5 to my desk and started doing paperwork before the
6 end of my shift.
7 Q That was going to be my next question; did
8 you go back and just do the paperwork?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, you get off at Midnight and you go
11 home?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And when is the next time, or the first
14 time you felt pain?
15 A About four hours later. I woke up about
16 5:00 in the morning. I probably went to bed about
17 12:30, 1:00. I woke up about 5:30 that morning
18 with just excruciating low back pain. Trying to
19 roll out of bed, getting up getting on my shoes was
20 just brutal. Probably one of the worse pain I've
21 ever felt in my life.
22 Q Now, when you said you woke up with pain
23 and trying to get out of bed, where did you feel
24 pain? Would you say low back, or where?
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1 A Low back from kind of the base of the spine
2 across the top of the buttocks.
3 Q Now, obviously, there was some injury or
4 problem with your back at this time.
5 Backing up, had you ever had a back
6 issue where it was a significant back issue,
7 outside of something sore or anything like that?
8 Have you ever had this type of pain?
9 A I have not.
10 Q Now, you said you had struggled to get out
11 of bed. What happened?
12 A I was able to kind of roll and get myself
13 up. I put my feet on the floor. Upon trying to
14 then walk, the pain radiated down into both
15 buttocks into the back of my thighs.
16 I think I woke up my wife, and then I
17 kind of struggled to slowly walk into -- our master
18 bathroom is right off my side of the bed, so I was
19 able to walk into there, hold onto the countertop
20 and try to get my bearings to where I could stand
21 up and actually walk.
22 Q And what time was this did you say?
23 A About 5:30 or so.
24 Q Did you have to work that day?
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1 A I did.
2 Q What did you do concerning the back pain
3 you were having at 5:30 in the morning? What did
4 you do about that?
5 A I got up and started moving around. Over
6 the course of the next couple of hours or so, it
7 lightened up a little bit and it wasn't as bad.
8 And then that next morning I called my
9 Commander, Commander Funk and let him know what was
10 going on, and he then said for me to get over to
11 Occupational Health.
12 Q Now, that was March 10th when you called
13 your Commander?
14 A Correct.
15 Q And this happened at 9:30, March 9th?
16 A Correct.
17 Q Now, you say Occupational Health. We know
18 what that means, but can you describe for the Board
19 what exactly is occupational health?
20 A It's a division of, we use Northwestern
21 over here at McHenry hospital, which I'm assuming,
22 I don't know the specific definition, is part of
23 the hospital that specifically deals with workplace
24 injuries on people who are injured on the job. I
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1 guess that's the occupational type.
2 Q Now, you called your supervisor. Did you
3 have to fill out a report? Did you come into the
4 police station on the 10th to fill out a report?
5 A Yes. I think later on the day of the 10th
6 I would have gone in and completed the extensive
7 paperwork that we have to do for a department
8 injury.
9 Q Was that done after you went to
10 Occupational Health?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And when you went to Occupational Health, I
13 assume you told them the same story about what
14 happened on the 9th that you told us. Can you
15 describe for the Board what you told the doctor
16 concerning your injury and what he said and what
17 tests they may have done?
18 A Pretty much I told him the same story as I
19 have just testified to. I explained to him that I
20 had never had prior back issues. I've never been
21 to a chiropractor. I never had any treatment for
22 my back.
23 I told him the call that we went
24 through, and then what I experienced the next
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1 morning.
2 He did an X-ray. I went back up, met
3 briefly with them. And I believe at that point
4 they just diagnosed it as a possible strain and
5 said to be off work for a week, and then to come
6 back and recheck it in about a week.
7 Q Did you go back and see him on March 17th?
8 A I did.
9 Q And could you describe how you felt at that
10 time, what changes you may have had since the
11 March 10th visit?
12 A It had gotten a little bit better. It
13 wasn't as excruciating. It was still obviously
14 there. The discomfort and the pain was obvious
15 over the course of that week.
16 I would come and do light duty at the
17 Police Department, which consisted of sitting
18 pretty much all day, getting up and walking when I
19 can.
20 So that nagging discomfort and pain
21 continued through the week. I went back and told
22 them at that point that it had gotten somewhat
23 better, but there were still clearly some issues.
24 Q Now, when you were there initially on
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1 March 10th, they put you on some restrictions for
2 work, so the next visit being the 17th, you had
3 been still at the department doing light duty?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And light duty consisted of office-type
6 work?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Now, on the 17th, after your visit at
9 Occupational Health, did they schedule another
10 appointment for you?
11 A I don't specifically recall. I know I went
12 back that second time.
13 I think, I'm trying to recall if it was
14 that visit or if there was one more visit
15 afterwards where I actually started to feel pretty
16 good, and I told the nurse I was probably about 80
17 to 85 percent. I felt pretty good about it. I
18 felt I wanted to try going back to full duty.
19 Q According to the records, March 25th you
20 were back and you had told staff or the doctor
21 there that you felt you were ready to go back to
22 full duty.
23 A Okay. So then the 17th would have just
24 been a follow-up. They would have put me on for
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1 another week until the 25th.
2 Q And on the 25th, how did you feel at that
3 point? What was different that you felt you could
4 return to full duty?
5 A I hadn't had any other recurrences in the
6 morning of the massive pain that I felt back on the
7 10th. I just felt at that point, it's just kind of
8 somewhat of an ache.
9 Again, having never had back issues, I
10 really wasn't too alarmed by it. I took that they
11 felt it was just a strain not a big issue. And
12 I've always been one that if I feel like I'm good
13 enough to go to work, I'll go to work. So I felt
14 good enough at that point, even though I wasn't
15 100 percent, that I could go back and I should be
16 fine.
17 Q Were you taking any prescription medication
18 at that time, or just over-the-counter?
19 A No, they gave me a Prednisone pack. You
20 take so many pills for the first day and then the
21 second day. I think I took those. They did not
22 put me on any pain pills. There might have been a
23 muscle relaxer that was prescribed in there
24 somewhere.
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1 Q So you went back to work full-time after
2 the March 25th visit?
3 A I believe so, yes.
4 Q Now, on April 13th you're back at
5 Occupational Health, and the records indicate that
6 you worked for a few weeks and now the pain had
7 increased?
8 A Yeah. During that week or two, maybe ten
9 days that I had gone back to work, the pain was
10 always still there. I was just kind of dealing
11 with it.
12 There were days where I would come off
13 the street and have to take an ice-pack and put an
14 ice-pack on my back, take my gun belt off and ice
15 it while I was working.
16 Then in early April, if that date is
17 correct, the 13th, so it would have been the
18 morning of the 13th, I woke up with the same issue
19 that I had the month before, just the excruciating
20 pain. Can't get up. Couldn't walk. And it was
21 almost worse than it was a month before. So I went
22 back to Occupational Health.
23 Q To make it clear, March 25th when you went
24 back to work, that was full duties like you had
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1 been doing prior to this incident on March 9th,
2 correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And those duties consisted of answering
5 calls, assisting in calls, or a general Supervisor
6 nature for a Sergeant in the department, correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Now, when you saw the Occupational Health
9 on the 13th, it indicates that an MRI was now
10 ordered?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And also, they had given you some Flexeril
13 for your back?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, did they schedule another appointment?
16 Because according to the record, it says April 20th
17 they wanted you to come in and see them again,
18 which would be the following week, correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And you recall the visit on April 20th
21 because at that point you had received an MRI,
22 correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q And what happened on the April 20th visit?
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1 A I went in and spoke with them again, and
2 they noted that there were deformities, or as you
3 would call it, bulging and herniated disks at --
4 there was a very minor one at L3/4, but then L4/L5
5 and L5/S1 had relatively significant bulges, as
6 well as herniations.
7 Q And you had the MRI on April 16th at
8 Progressive Radiology in Crystal Lake?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And then you saw the doctors on the 20th at
11 Occupational Health, and that's when you were
12 advised of what the results of the MRI were,
13 correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And did they refer you at that point
16 Occupational Health to a specific doctor?
17 A They suggested that I go to a physiatrist
18 pain specialist, and they suggested Dr. Liang,
19 L-i-a-n-g out of Crystal Lake.
20 Q And did you schedule an appointment with
21 Dr. Liang?
22 A Not initially. I initially, anticipating
23 that they were probably going to send me to
24 physical therapy and whatnot, I initially had a
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1 consultation directly with an orthopedic down in
2 Midwest Orthopedics at Rush downtown.
3 Q And why did you see that doctor at Midwest?
4 A Just for continuity of treatment.
5 I felt that if I go to the physiatrist,
6 if things work out, great. If they don't and she's
7 going to refer me to an orthopedic, then I just
8 felt like why don't I just start with an orthopedic
9 so that he or she can order the physical therapy.
10 If there's any injections, or whatever is going to
11 end up happening, just to have consistency of
12 treatment and not have multiple different doctors
13 dealing with it.
14 Q Was that Dr. An?
15 A Dr. Howard An, A-n was the last name, down
16 at Rush.
17 Q How did you get his name?
18 A Through a friend who had done a lot of work
19 down at Rush, and just a friendly referral.
20 Q And when you saw Dr. An, it appears on
21 May 8th, 2020, what did you tell him?
22 A I went through the same story as I have
23 described here, the same history, the same
24 information as I already testified to as to how it
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1 happened, and my medical history.
2 Q And what was his diagnosis or opinion at
3 that time to you?
4 A He didn't really give one, to be honest
5 with you.
6 He did say that he saw the MRI and did
7 confirm that there were the herniations and the
8 bulges, and suggested that I needed to do some
9 conservative treatment such as physical therapy and
10 possible injections in order to remedy it. The
11 frustrating part then occurred.
12 I then left there and waited for the
13 next two weeks for him to prescribe the physical
14 therapy, but he never did, at which time I called
15 his office and I was told that I'm not a patient of
16 Dr. An's; that he's not taking any patients, he's
17 only taking surgical candidates and was not taking
18 me as a patient, so he would not prescribe any
19 physical therapy.
20 Q So you just weren't a patient of his at
21 that point?
22 A Apparently. It was just more of a
23 consultation.
24 So at that point I then called Dr.
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1 Liang, the physiatrist who work Occupational Health
2 had said to go to, and set up an appointment with
3 her to follow up my next course of action was going
4 to be.
5 Q And what did she have to say when you saw
6 her on the 27th?
7 A I went through all the same information,
8 the history and how it all occurred. She reviewed
9 the MRI and suggested I start a series of physical
10 therapy.
11 Q Did you start the physical therapy?
12 A I did.
13 Q Can you describe for the Board how the
14 physical therapy affected you and where you had the
15 physical therapy, and also, how often you went to
16 physical therapy?
17 A That first set I believe was two or three
18 times a week. It was done with Steven Conroy over
19 at the Northwestern facility over here on 31.
20 There were a series of core-
21 strengthening type of physical therapy that they
22 were doing. In the grand scheme it really didn't
23 help me at all. There were times when I would come
24 home from appointments and I was actually worse and
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1 more sore. So for the most part, it really didn't
2 help very much.
3 Q Now, did she describe this as just
4 conservative-type treatment to see if that would
5 work, as opposed to down the road, any type of
6 surgical intervention?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Now, at some point when you're treating
9 with Dr. Liang, is there any mention of having the
10 epidural shot?
11 A After the physical therapy really didn't
12 give us much effect or immediate relief, she then
13 suggested an epidural.
14 Q And who conducted the epidural?
15 A She did.
16 Q And approximately around July or August
17 of 2020?
18 A July was my first.
19 Q And can you describe for people who don't
20 know or haven't had the pleasure, what an epidural
21 shot is?
22 A They basically lay you down on your
23 stomach. You're kind of bent over a little bit.
24 And she basically takes a rather large needle and
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1 injects it right into your lower spine and hits
2 different spots of where the nerves are down in
3 there with, I think they use Cortisone, I'm not
4 sure, to try and reduce the swelling of the nerves.
5 Q When you had your first shot, how did you
6 feel after the shot?
7 A Not too bad for about four or five days
8 actually. It did give me some relief; not
9 completely, but enough to where I had actually felt
10 pretty good.
11 Q Now, did you have another shot again later
12 on that summer?
13 A I did. Again, that one lasted about four
14 or five days, and then all the symptoms, all the
15 same stuff came right back.
16 I then went and saw her again about a
17 month later, and she wanted to try the facet joint
18 injections, the little joints on the back of your
19 spine. So she did a set of four of those, so four
20 different injections on the facet joint. She
21 wanted to see if that would give me relief.
22 Q And was the procedure very similar to the
23 prior shots, just it was being done in a different
24 area?
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1 A Yeah. And a few more injections, there
2 were four injections, versus the one or two from
3 the epidural.
4 Q Did you notice any change in your pain,
5 your mobility or anything after you had those done
6 in 2020?
7 A Absolutely not, nothing whatsoever. No
8 relief.
9 Q And it wasn't the same type of shot you
10 initially had, was it?
11 A It was just different. I don't know if
12 it's the same medicine or whatever that they use,
13 but obviously the epidural goes deep into the spine
14 where the nerve column is, and these are just more
15 on the outer facet joints, but it's a similar idea.
16 Q September 10th, you had another epidural,
17 correct?
18 A I did.
19 Q That's similar to the one you had earlier
20 in the summer that you had four or five days of
21 pain relief from when you had it, correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q And when you had the one in September, did
24 you notice any difference in how you felt?
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1 A Again, maybe a couple days, kind of like
2 the first one. That's why she wanted to do the
3 second one, because she said I may have got some
4 relief from the first one; let's see if we can get
5 duplicate it again and get help for a couple days,
6 but then it all came right back again.
7 Q Now in a general sense, at this point in
8 September of 2020 when you had that epidural, how
9 was the pain and how had it been throughout the
10 summer, if you can kind of summarize where you were
11 at on September 10th?
12 A I knew this question was going to come up,
13 but it's staggeringly difficult to really describe
14 to someone who hasn't had back pain.
15 Generally speaking, the low back pain
16 that I was having, I rated -- these are subjective
17 so that's why I want to tell you what it is. I
18 rate a 1 or 2 out of the 10 scale as discomfort. 3
19 to 4 out of 10 is obvious pain, but I can deal with
20 it. You might not see it on my face every time,
21 but it's there.
22 Once you get up into the 5, 6 and 7,
23 it's obvious it's intense and obviously you can't
24 past that.
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1 Most of that whole summer during that
2 time I was hovering between the 3 to 5 range.
3 And it really just depends so much on
4 what are you doing, how much are you doing it, how
5 much are you not doing, how much are you sitting,
6 how much are you up walking? There's just no way
7 to particularly describe this, is what it was at
8 this time. It just was a constant thing. It was a
9 constant bothersome discomfort pain through most of
10 that summer.
11 Q Now, because of that, and obviously it
12 being summer, how were your activities restricted
13 during the summer?
14 A They were pretty restricted. I had to be
15 very careful about what I was doing, what I was not
16 doing.
17 I wasn't a complete invalid, but
18 sometimes I had to completely limit myself. I
19 didn't want to do anything to over-stress or strain
20 it at the same time.
21 Sitting doing nothing causes more issue
22 and more pain than if I was up and being active.
23 So there were things I could do; there
24 were things I couldn't do. It's just a matter of
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1 really trying to limit and pick and choose what I
2 could do and try and limit the pain.
3 Q Now, the end of September, September 22nd,
4 you saw Dr. Shapiro?
5 A I did.
6 Q Tell the Board how you came upon Dr.
7 Shapiro and what was the issue to see Dr. Shapiro
8 about?
9 A After the last injection didn't work, I
10 spoke with Dr. Liang. She was going to refer me to
11 an orthopedic surgeon. I wanted to go to Dr.
12 Shapiro. I had had ankle surgery back in 2013 at
13 Illinois Bone & Joint in Glenview. I had great
14 results, and I was very familiar with that
15 facility. So I went and sought out Dr. Shapiro as
16 an orthopedic surgeon.
17 Q Now, when you saw Dr. Shapiro, obviously
18 you told him what you told us here today and what
19 you told the other doctors about the history,
20 meaning how this all happened and your treatment.
21 What did Dr. Shapiro say to you when you saw him on
22 that day?
23 A He said he's not surprised that the
24 epidurals didn't work. Based on what he was seeing
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1 on the MRI, he felt that my only course of action
2 was to do a lumbar spinal fusion and fuse the
3 bottom three vertebrae together.
4 Q Now, if you know, can you describe to the
5 Board what a fusion means in your back?
6 A Yeah. I can tell you exactly what he told
7 me.
8 He would go in. There will be two
9 disks, so three vertebrae. So they take the two
10 disks that are in there and completely remove them.
11 They cut out a chunk of your vertebrae as they go
12 in through the back. They cut some of those facet
13 joints out. They then take the disks out
14 completely they replace the disks with a spacer
15 that contains bone marrow and bone material,
16 cadaver bone.
17 They reinsert those back in there. And
18 they then take six about one and-a-half to two-inch
19 screws and screw each of the vertebrae, and then
20 put vertical rods holding all that together.
21 He also puts in some spacers where the
22 facet joints used to be with bone marrow. And then
23 the idea is over the course of six, eight, ten
24 months, that all fuses together into one solid
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1 bone.
2 Q Now, for the obvious being done to help the
3 pain issues, what is that type of surgery going to
4 do to your mobility and strength?
5 A It's going to significantly cut down the
6 mobility.
7 Obviously, the spine is intended to
8 move somewhat like a snake and be fluid back and
9 forth so the bottom part of my whatever it is,
10 bottom two, three, four inches of my spine is one
11 solid mass now. There is no flexibility. There's
12 no give.
13 Q Now, L3/L4 L5/S1 is basically indicating
14 your lower back, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Just above the buttocks in the hip area,
17 correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Do you notice a difference in range of
20 motion, mobility, etc., concerning your lower back
21 since you've had this?
22 A Absolutely, significantly.
23 Q Now, you went and saw Shapiro, and we've
24 discussed what you had told him and what he had
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1 said to you. Obviously, there was surgery
2 prescribed by him. Can you go into the details of
3 what led up to that and the surgery on November 4th?
4 A Sure. Once he recommended the surgery, I
5 knew it was a pretty big deal.
6 I had an appointment with Dr. Liang,
7 the pain specialist, about a week later. It was
8 already set up. So I went back and talked with
9 her. I told her what he had said. She went
10 through it with me and suggested that I get a
11 second opinion.
12 She did say how extensive the surgery
13 is; that there are times it works, there's times it
14 does not work. She also questioned why an
15 arthroscopic procedure could not be done. I don't
16 know exactly what it's called, but the way it was
17 explained to me is they can go in arthroscopically
18 and trim the bulging part. So she was questioning
19 that as well.
20 So at that point I called Dr. Shapiro
21 and he called me back and I asked him about that.
22 His explanation was very simple. He said -- which
23 I didn't have a lot of radiating pain down my legs.
24 I had it in my upper buttocks area, a little bit in
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1 my hamstring.
2 I'm going to paraphrase what he said,
3 so I think this is pretty accurate.
4 He said the arthroscopic procedure is
5 done more strictly for a herniation. And the
6 difference between a bulge and a herniation, he
7 explained it is basically the disk is a jelly
8 donut, and when it crushes, the jelly donut
9 expands. That's a bulge.
10 A herniation is when the jelly actually
11 squirts out of the donut. And when that happens,
12 the herniation will then start hitting nerves and
13 you'll start feeling it all the way down your legs;
14 you'll start feeling a lot of radiating pain.
15 So his explanation to me was
16 considering that 80 to 90 percent of my pain was
17 just low back pain with minimal radiation, he said
18 we could do the arthroscopic procedure, but it's
19 only going to fix ten percent of the issue. So in
20 his opinion, the issue was not just a herniation,
21 it was the whole bulge that was coming out, and
22 that the arthroscopic procedure would not be
23 suitable.
24 Q So you had the surgery with Dr. Shapiro?
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1 A I did go get a second opinion first. After
2 having that discussion with him, I went back to Dr.
3 Howard An back at Rush and got a second opinion
4 from him.
5 Q What did he tell you?
6 A He told me the exact same thing that Dr.
7 Shapiro had said. When I brought up to him the
8 possibility of the arthroscopic procedure, he told
9 me the exact same thing that Dr. Shapiro said, that
10 it's not going to fix the problem.
11 Q And you had the surgery on November 4th.
12 Where did you have the surgery at?
13 A Skokie hospital.
14 Q And can you tell the Board as best you can
15 what you did beforehand, the surgery, how long it
16 was and how you felt afterwards, a couple days
17 afterwards?
18 A Sure. Well, due to the wonderful COVID,
19 there were a lot of restrictions and quarantine
20 procedures that I had to go through.
21 My surgery I think was on a Tuesday, so
22 I went down. Since I couldn't do it with my
23 family, I had to get a COVID test, and then I had
24 to quarantine after the COVID test. So I actually
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1 went and got a room at a hotel down in Wheeling and
2 just locked myself in the room for the next two
3 days until surgery. I went down and had the
4 surgery. Ended up being late afternoon on the 4th,
5 November 4th.
6 Q Now, obviously when you were in the
7 hospital, nobody could come see you because of
8 COVID. And how long were you in the hospital?
9 Were you an outpatient? Did they keep you
10 overnight?
11 A A couple days. I was there for two nights
12 because the surgery I think was on the 4th. I was
13 there for the night of the 4th and the night of the
14 5th, and I believe I went home on the 6th.
15 Q How did you feel when you went home on the
16 6th?
17 A Well, I was loaded up on Dilaudid and a
18 number of other pain pills, so it's kind of a blur
19 to me, to be honest with you. I don't remember a
20 lot about it. I remember being in the hospital. I
21 remember nurses coming. And I remember me thinking
22 I'm being a giant pain in the rear-end pushing a
23 button all the time, but I needed help with a lot
24 of stuff. I remember thinking that.
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1 But overall, the pain was pretty
2 considerable, even with the Dilaudin, even with the
3 pump that they gave me.
4 They got me off of that within a day.
5 They then went to trying to give me Tramadol for
6 pain, which was completely useless. So then they
7 started giving me Norco, and I was on Norco when I
8 was leaving the hospital.
9 My wife came and picked me up, and it
10 was painful. Having never gone through something
11 like this, it was pretty nerve-wracking.
12 Q Now, you had a follow-up appointment with
13 Shapiro. Obviously, he's checking the hardware
14 that was put in your back. Did you have any
15 infection or anything with the incision after the
16 surgery?
17 A No, I didn't.
18 Q And what happened after that with Dr.
19 Shapiro? What was the course of treatment at that
20 time?
21 A I went back to see him the following
22 Tuesday, so about six or seven days after. Again,
23 I was so loaded up on Norco at the time, I don't
24 really know exactly what transpired so much. I
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1 know they took my staples out I think at that
2 point.
3 And he basically felt that the surgery
4 had gone well there and shouldn't be any issues.
5 So I had him release me back home.
6 I got home that day and took a nap,
7 tried to take a nap, and woke up not knowing where
8 I was. I didn't recognize my own home. I was
9 having a dream while I was sleeping that I was out
10 on a farm field in northern Wisconsin somewhere. I
11 went and looked out my front window of my house and
12 I saw nothing but cornfields. I live in a
13 subdivision with houses all around me.
14 So I went downstairs and talked to my
15 wife. We took the Norco and put it away. I think
16 I took maybe three more pills during the week. I
17 just switched right off to as many Tylenol as I
18 could fathom. So I was off the pain pills for
19 about a week, and then just slowly in a
20 staggeringly uncomfortable start the recovery.
21 Q Now, when you went back to see Shapiro, I
22 assume you had a visit every couple weeks after the
23 surgery?
24 A Six weeks. One week after the surgery and
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1 then every six weeks.
2 Q And what was Dr. Shapiro's opinion as to
3 your recovery at that point?
4 A At the first visit?
5 Q The second.
6 A Sorry, second visit.
7 He thought things were going well. I
8 told him at that visit I developed something after
9 surgery that I did not have beforehand. I had the
10 low back pain, but I had developed a whole other
11 issue that I had never had before surgery.
12 I was having a very difficult time any
13 time I would lay down, specifically on my back.
14 And even to this day. I had it last night going to
15 bed. It's right there as it always has been. When
16 I lay on my back and I put my feet down, moving
17 around in bed became incredibly difficult and
18 extremely painful.
19 I'll tell you this. I never knew it
20 beforehand, but when you roll around in bed, it's
21 your legs that are actually lifting your buttocks
22 off the bed, pushing you back and forth. That was
23 very difficult.
24 I cannot bridge my back. Even to this
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1 day I put my feet down and try to arch my back and
2 I can't do it. And I'll get very bad pains
3 shooting from the buttocks down to my hamstring.
4 So I told him about that. He thought
5 at that point that it was a post-operative issue.
6 He wasn't too alarmed by it. But he said see how
7 it goes. And he prescribed some physical therapy
8 for me. We started that about eight weeks after
9 surgery. And then come back to report to him how
10 it was going after that.
11 Q How much physical therapy did you do?
12 A Six weeks. The first batch was six weeks,
13 two to three times a week.
14 Q And what did they have you do?
15 A Much of the same.
16 Again, it was Steve Conroy here in
17 McHenry on 31. And it was primarily a lot of core
18 strength training, a lot of slowly lifting your
19 legs, working on your gait, starting to walk more.
20 I had a walker. I was using a walker
21 for the first probably six to eight weeks after
22 surgery. So it was very much a lot of core
23 strengthening.
24 Q What was your pain at that point relative
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1 to the type of pain you had prior to surgery?
2 A I'll describe it in two different ways.
3 There is just the everday low back pain that was
4 still there, then there was that new issue that
5 developed when I laid down.
6 So just the everyday back pain sitting
7 in a chair, getting up, moving, trying to bend,
8 trying to do basic things, for those first six
9 weeks was probably a solid 4 to 6, something like
10 that at any given time, which sometimes it would
11 flare-up, sometimes it would be a little bit
12 better.
13 The pain when I would lay down that I
14 had described, that was any time I would try and
15 move in bed, roll over, that's anywhere from a 6 to
16 an 8, maybe a 9 sometimes.
17 Q How has that changed as you sit here today?
18 A It's reduced somewhat, but it's still
19 clearly there. And so much of it is dependent on
20 what I do during the course of a day. If I am
21 over-active, it will be more intense. If I am
22 under-active and sit and don't do much, it will be
23 that much more intense.
24 So the last few months of my life have
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1 been very much trying to find that obscure middle
2 of the road of not doing too much, but doing
3 enough, to where it's tolerable.
4 Q Obviously, you told Shapiro what you've
5 told us. What was Shapiro's plan at that point in
6 trying to resolve the issues you were having?
7 A I think at my second or maybe my third
8 appointment with him, I believe he wanted to go and
9 do a couple more diagnostic tests to see if he
10 could find out what was going on and why I was
11 having these new issues.
12 He did a CT-scan in March to check on
13 the hardware and the status of the fusion. And
14 then he also did another MRI in mid March as well
15 to find out if he could see anything.
16 Q And after you had the CT-scan and the MRI
17 done, you met or spoke with Shapiro. What was his
18 opinion at that point concerning the new films?
19 A He didn't see anything that was, in his
20 words, a smoking gun as to what would be causing
21 it.
22 He did explain to me that obviously,
23 the extensive amount of nerves and nerve tissues
24 that run down in that area, that it's a very
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1 delicate area, but he couldn't see anything on the
2 CT or the MRI that was a glaring issue that he felt
3 was causing this.
4 Q Did he believe there was any additional
5 surgery or anything he could do that could help
6 you?
7 A No, he did not think additional surgeries
8 were suitable.
9 Q Did you go seek out a second opinion or
10 anyone else concerning that?
11 A That early on, no.
12 He prescribed another round of physical
13 therapy for me, which he said was reduced one to
14 two times a week. So I was still doing that. And
15 then he then wanted to go back and try an epidural
16 injection as well. So I went through a series of
17 epidural injections.
18 Q And this is March, April of '21?
19 A The epidurals, let me think. My therapy
20 piece would have gone, first bout, January into
21 February. The second bout would probably be
22 February into the end of March. And then I
23 probably did my first epidural some time in April
24 maybe, something like that.
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1 Q Did you notice any change in your
2 condition?
3 A The first epidural actually helped quite a
4 bit, and I was somewhat excited for it because for
5 a few days after that, I actually felt really good.
6 And I felt I was more mobile and I could do some
7 more things. And again, I was pretty optimistic
8 about it.
9 But then within three, four, five days
10 afterwards, it started to go away and all the same
11 symptoms came back.
12 Q Now, in the course of the spring of '21,
13 February to April which you're talking about, did
14 you continue to treat with Shapiro through the rest
15 of the spring and summer?
16 A I did. He did a series of -- he may have
17 done two other injections. His words, he said if
18 it gives you any relief, you can do injections all
19 we want to, as many as you want.
20 So I think we did maybe a total of
21 three. And at that point it would be the same
22 thing; it would help for a little bit, but then
23 within a couple days it would all be right back
24 again.
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1 So I want to say like in June or July,
2 no it was June. I stopped my treatment with him
3 beginning in June.
4 Q And you stopped treating with Shapiro at
5 that point?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Did you treat with anybody else from June
8 on?
9 A I did. Dr. Shapiro suggested because I was
10 still having these issues with laying down with the
11 intense pain. It's not even at night; it's any
12 time during the day when I would lay down or
13 whatever.
14 He wanted to rule out because the pain
15 would radiate from my low back through my right
16 buttocks and down my right leg, so he wanted to
17 check my right hip, and suggested we get an MRI of
18 my right hip, just to take a look at it and rule
19 that out that that's not causing any of the issues.
20 Q Did you have the MRI?
21 A After a battle with work comp, yes.
22 Q That's a yes?
23 A That's a yes.
24 Q And you had the MRI, and then did you go
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1 see the doctor Dr. Shapiro referred you to?
2 A He referred me to Dr. Van Stamos who is the
3 hip specialist at Illinois Bone & Joint. I saw Dr.
4 Stamos first. We then got the MRI finally
5 approved. We did that, and then I went back and
6 saw Dr. Stamos again.
7 Q And obviously you've described as we've
8 said with all the other doctors what you've told
9 us. What did Dr. Stamos tell you after reviewing
10 the MRI?
11 A He said there was nothing found in the MRI
12 that would give an indication as to the pain I was
13 having. He said there was a slight tear in my
14 labrum of my hip, but he said that's very common
15 for people my age, and that's not in any way
16 consistent with the pain issues I was having. So
17 he felt that was just a minor asymptomatic issue.
18 So overall, nothing wrong that would contribute to
19 that.
20 Q And as a result of talking with Shapiro--
21 strike that. Did you talk with Shapiro about your
22 ability to go back to work as a full-time Police
23 Officer?
24 A I did.
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1 Q What was Shapiro's opinion?
2 A He felt that was not a good idea. He felt
3 that I would not be able to participate in any of
4 the physical issues that come with that job. So I
5 talked with him regarding disability and he agreed
6 and completed the paperwork.
7 Q And as you say, he completed the paperwork.
8 An application was filed to pursue a line-of-duty
9 disability application. As a result of that, the
10 Board referred you to three doctors to conduct
11 Independent Medical Exams, correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And you went and saw Jesse Butler on
14 October 25th. Do you recall that?
15 A I do.
16 Q And Dr. Carl Graf on the 19th of October?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And Dr. Daniel Troy on the 11th of October,
19 correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And fair to say you said exactly what
22 you've told us today, as best as you can recall,
23 concerning the mechanics of the injury and all your
24 treatment?
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1 A Correct.
2 Q And when you saw Dr. Butler, do you recall
3 what if any exams he conducted when you were there?
4 A Yes. We went over how the injury occurred.
5 We went over the history. We went over the exam
6 consisted of walking on my heels, walking on my
7 toes, twisting, bending, strength of lower body
8 tests. He checked the incision, checked for
9 tenderness around the indecision or any issues with
10 that. But it was primarily a lot of walking,
11 bending, stooping; that type of exam.
12 Q Do you recall how long you were with him at
13 that time?
14 A I think the whole appointment probably took
15 30 minutes or so.
16 Q Now, when you saw Dr. Graf, can you
17 describe the appointment you had with Dr. Graf?
18 A Very, very similar to that as with Dr.
19 Butler.
20 Q And Dr. Troy?
21 A Very much the same.
22 Q Did you bring any films or X-Rays to the
23 doctors for the IME?
24 A I did. I brought all of them, which
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1 consisted I think of seven different disks.
2 Q Disks, you mean like a CD-type thing that
3 contains the pictures from the MRI and X-Rays?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Did you have any conversations with any
6 doctor specifically concerning any treatment you
7 had had or any type of diagnosis they may have made
8 while you were there?
9 A With the Independent Medical Exams?
10 Q Exactly.
11 A They didn't give me any specific diagnosis.
12 Dr. Butler, and I'm sorry the third one?
13 Q Troy.
14 A And Dr. Troy, we talked a little bit about
15 what the job is, what it entails. And they were
16 very forthright in basically saying that they
17 didn't think it was a good idea that I go back and
18 do it again, and that they were going to note that
19 specific examples that he even mentioned about
20 being able to run and chase after people, being
21 able to fight with people, that that would be a
22 danger to myself, a danger to my colleagues, a
23 danger to the citizens of the town that I wouldn't
24 be able to do emergency high-stress, high-pressure
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1 situations.
2 Q When you went and first saw these three
3 doctors for the IMEs, did they discuss that you
4 weren't a patient of theirs; that they were just
5 going to conduct a medical exam?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Now, when they talked about being able to
8 run, can you run?
9 A No.
10 Q What else can you not do?
11 A Jumping. Anything that involves
12 significant impact.
13 I can walk. I can only get up to about
14 a mile before I'll start feeling discomfort.
15 Admittedly, I haven't been in any
16 physical altercations over the past few months, but
17 I think it's very safe to assume that would not be
18 a good thing.
19 The twisting, the bending. Anything
20 I'm finding around my house, anything involving an
21 appliance is very difficult.
22 Doing laundry, we have a traditional
23 top-load washer/front-load dryer, so bending down
24 and pulling wet clothes out and then bending over
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1 and putting them into the dryer is difficult. When
2 the clothes are done, pulling stuff out of the
3 dryer, I would tell you most of the time I just sit
4 down on the floor. I just get down on the floor in
5 front of the dryer and I'll pull it out, because
6 bending over, it's just unbearable.
7 The dishwasher is unbearable. My wife
8 felt she needed a new refrigerator with the freezer
9 down below. That's not a good idea at this point
10 now. It's very difficult to get down in there.
11 So anything involving appliances is
12 very difficult. Anything involving just repeated
13 bending over.
14 This morning we went over our
15 recyclables, so I went out to come here today and
16 I've got garbage all over the front yard. Bending
17 over and doing that was a task.
18 There's a lot of things that I can't
19 do. There's a lot of things I can do, but I have
20 to limit it. There's a lot of things that are
21 very, very difficult to do that I just have to push
22 through it during the course of my day.
23 Q Now, you indicated to me over the course of
24 talking about your case that the doctors
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1 recommended some type of activities to get
2 exercise?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And what were those and how do you do them?
5 A Basically, the only exercise I can do right
6 now is riding a bike. Riding a bike, there's no
7 impact. It's a smooth process. I ride on bike
8 paths and on the roads, not any trails or anything
9 like that. Dr. Shapiro highly recommended that
10 even before surgery.
11 I've lost about 25 pounds just being
12 out riding the bike, trying to take some weight off
13 to make sure that wasn't causing the issue.
14 Then after surgery I talked with Dr.
15 Shapiro and I told him that this seems to be the
16 only thing I can do. He suggested do as much of it
17 as you can, because you do need exercise, you do
18 have to try and keep weight off. So this past
19 summer, I would ride my bike around my neighborhood
20 and down the side streets, and I was able to drop
21 other 20, 25 pounds, something like that. But now
22 that it's winter, it's difficult.
23 Q Is that basically the only type of exercise
24 that you do?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Does anything else have any type of impact,
3 as you described it, that causes pain?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Anything else you can't do that you used to
6 be able to do before March 9th?
7 A I'm sure there are.
8 Coughing, sneezing. Sneezing is still
9 a bear. Anything where there is a sudden -- I'm
10 walking on the sidewalk and there's a one-inch
11 crack or something that I don't see and I'm not
12 expecting it and you step down, I'll get a jolt.
13 Anything that startles me.
14 I was combing my hair a couple weeks
15 ago and I dropped the brush and the flinch reaction
16 to stop and try and grab the brush gives me a jolt
17 up in my back.
18 You know, it's anything really that
19 involves real physical activity.
20 I was always a very pretty active
21 person. I snow skied my whole life. I bought jet
22 skis eight years ago. I've had any number of
23 things that I get out and I like to do. So even if
24 I could do it, it has to be so severely limited. I
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1 suppose I could get out on the bunny hill and snow
2 ski, but that's not what I like to do.
3 There's a lot of things. Golfing.
4 Golfing is the biggest one. I'm sorry I didn't
5 think of that before. I used to golf a lot. I
6 love to golf. And I tried swinging a club the
7 beginning of last September. Pitching and chipping
8 around a green, fine, you're not really doing
9 anything. Full swing at the golf club, I got
10 halfway down and I had to drop it because of pain
11 shooting down both buttocks. So that's a no-no for
12 me.
13 Q What do you take on a daily basis, if you
14 do, medications to alleviate some of the pain?
15 A I don't. The pain is there every day and I
16 just feel like I'm not going to take Tylenol every
17 day.
18 If it gets really bad, it happens a
19 couple times a month I'll pop a Tylenol or Advil.
20 Advil seems to work better. It's an
21 anti-inflammatory. But other than that, I don't
22 take anything further.
23 MR. QUILTY: I have no further questions.
24 MS. GOODLOE: Thank you.
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1 At this point, the Board has the
2 opportunity to ask questions. I can get the ball
3 rolling.
4 EXAMINATION
5 By: Ms. Goodloe
6 Q Given the fact that counsel did a very good
7 job of creating a record here today, I only have a
8 very few number of questions. Most are going to be
9 related to your employment history and background,
10 just to ensure I have a keen understanding of where
11 you sit from a pension standpoint.
12 A Okay.
13 Q Your current age is 50, correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q And your current rank is Sergeant?
16 A Correct.
17 Q And you testified earlier that you are
18 married and you have a son and daughter aged 19 and
19 22?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Are either of them considered a dependent
22 financially or physically, mentally, to you in
23 terms of the fact that they are now over the age
24 of 18, but are they still dependent upon you?
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1 A My son still is in the sense that he still
2 lives with us. My daughter and her boyfriend just
3 got an apartment down in Lombard, so hopefully,
4 they are on the way out of the nest, so we won't
5 have to be as much.
6 Q But your son has never been rendered
7 disabled?
8 A No, nothing like that.
9 Q And you do not have any dependent parents
10 who are financially dependent upon you and have
11 been disabled in any capacity?
12 A I do not.
13 Q And you marked on your disability
14 application you do not have any Quadros on file for
15 prior marriages, correct?
16 A That is correct. I do not.
17 Q You testified earlier that you underwent a
18 past initial two tests for employment physical.
19 Does the City of McHenry Police Department require
20 you to undergo any sort of additional physical
21 fitness tests throughout your ten years as a Police
22 Officer?
23 A They did for a while. I don't remember the
24 exact years. But I'm going to say maybe from 2005
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1 up through maybe 2012 or something.
2 There was a period of time where we did
3 have a yearly physical fitness test that we did
4 have to do that was a bit of a watered-down version
5 of the actual state tests you have to do to get
6 into the Academy. There was a period of time that
7 we had to do it and I would partake in that and
8 passed.
9 Q And you did pass it every year?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you have any considerable gaps in your
12 service throughout your tenure as a Police Officer
13 here?
14 A No.
15 Q No suspensions without pay during your
16 tenure here?
17 A No.
18 Q Any other forms of leave of absence taken
19 through FMLA?
20 A Nothing like that. Just when I had ankle
21 surgery back in '13, that was all sick time. Other
22 than that, no.
23 Q And were you ever a member of the military
24 service?
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1 A I was not.
2 Q And your date last worked was April 9th of
3 2020; is that correct or incorrect?
4 A Sounds about right. That would be that
5 little gap where I came back and tried to work
6 again in between the two; whatever that last day
7 was, that was my last day in the squad car.
8 Q And what's your current employment status
9 with the City of McHenry?
10 A I'm currently employed on light duty.
11 Q On light duty?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So if you could just give me kind of a
14 history as to you became injured, obviously, on
15 March 9th of 2020?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You were off for I believe a period of
18 about a week initially?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And then you returned to light duty, and
21 you've been working light duty ever since then?
22 A I'm going to try and get this right.
23 I think I was out after -- after they
24 first sent me to Occupational Health, I think they
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1 put me off for about two weeks. I went back a week
2 later and they put me off for another week. And
3 that's when I then came back and tried working on
4 the street again for ten days, two weeks, something
5 like that.
6 Then I went back in. We had the MRI
7 done. We found the herniations and the bulge. And
8 I immediately went on light duty that day. And I
9 was on light duty doing desk work up until just
10 before surgery.
11 Q Okay.
12 A And then from the time I went to surgery
13 until the end of August of this year, I was
14 actually out on work comp. So from beginning of
15 September up until now, I've been back on light
16 duty.
17 Q So in terms of your pay status then, did
18 you ever get paid out through what's called PEDA,
19 the Public Employment Disability Act, where it
20 would be your full salary you were being
21 compensated for when you were off?
22 A Through the time I was on work comp, if
23 that's what you're referring to, I was paid through
24 work comp during that time, if that's what you're
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1 referring to.
2 Q No, it's okay.
3 So work comp is temporary TTD, and that
4 would be 66 and 2/3 percent of your salary. So
5 you're saying that you've always been compensated
6 for TTD payments through Workers' Compensation?
7 A Yes. My understanding is yes.
8 During that time I was out on work
9 comp, work comp pays two-thirds of the salary and
10 then the city picks up the other third.
11 MS. GOODLOE: Mr. Quilty, did you have a
12 question?
13 MR. QUILTY: Yes. I was going to ask what
14 you were paid, because if you got two-thirds, you
15 were just getting comp. I don't know if McHenry
16 does that, they match the other third on the
17 opposite two-thirds, and how they attribute that to
18 PEDA or whatever?
19 THE WITNESS: Two-thirds was paid by work
20 comp and the other third got picked up by the city.
21 So I was getting paid during that whole time, if
22 that answers your question.
23 BY MS. GOODLOE:
24 Q And to the best of your recollection,
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1 pension contributions were being withheld on both
2 the TTD and the other portion of payment from the
3 City of McHenry for that period?
4 A I would think so.
5 Q And are you aware of any full-time light-
6 duty positions in the McHenry Police Department?
7 A The only full-time light-duty positions
8 that I'm aware of are for those situations like
9 mine where people get injured on the job and they
10 are pending either return to work, or my situation.
11 There are no, to my knowledge, there are no
12 full-time light-duty positions on the Police
13 Department.
14 Q So no permanent full-duty?
15 A That's the word, permanent.
16 Q And therefore, you have never been offered
17 a full-time light-duty position?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And again, just to make sure I have this
20 clear for the record, prior to coming to McHenry,
21 you worked for Round Lake for approximately two
22 years, and that was a part-time position only,
23 correct?
24 A Correct.
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1 Q And so you were not a member of their
2 Pension Fund, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Do you know what your salary currently is?
5 A I think it's about $112.3. Something like
6 that.
7 Q You indicated on your application that you
8 did file a Workers' Compensation claim. Does that
9 remain pending as of today?
10 A Yes, it does.
11 Q And on your application you filed for a
12 line-of-duty disability pension only; is that
13 correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Any other prior employment?
16 A Prior from before being a Police Officer,
17 or while a Police Officer?
18 Q Yes. Prior employment, anything?
19 A Before being a Police Officer, no.
20 Q And you have outside employment as an
21 attorney, correct?
22 A I do.
23 Q Anything else?
24 A No.
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1 Q You do PI?
2 A I do.
3 Q And aside from that right ankle injury that
4 occurred in 2013 and then some incident with a
5 softball where you injured your quad or thigh,
6 there's nothing really remarkable in terms of your
7 medical history?
8 A No. I injured my wrist some years ago
9 bowling, of all things, believe it or not. It was
10 a bad bowling ball. And I was out for a few days
11 from that; but other than that, no. I've never
12 been on work comp. I've never had any significant
13 leave of absences.
14 Q What constitutes a bad bowling ball?
15 A I was trying to just kind of learn to put a
16 hook on the ball, but I quickly realized I can't do
17 that if the holes on the ball are too close
18 together. So not being an avid bowler, I learned
19 that pretty quickly.
20 Q Obviously, once you became injured in March
21 of 2020, you sought medical treatment for your
22 back. The medical records contain evidence that
23 you do have mild to moderate degenerative changes
24 in your back. Were you ever made aware of that up
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1 until the incident?
2 A No. I never received any treatment or any
3 diagnostic tests on my back.
4 Q I just have a couple questions with respect
5 to the March 9th incident.
6 As a Patrol Sergeant, you're required
7 pursuant to department rules and regulations to
8 respond to such calls as the one that you responded
9 to on March 9th, correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And did you respond to the scene with like
12 sirens and your squad car?
13 A I don't remember. I think when the call
14 came out, I was right at east campus, so I was two
15 blocks away, so I might not have. And it was
16 nighttime, I may not have turned my lights on for a
17 block or two. I don't remember.
18 Q Were you in your full uniform that day?
19 A Yes, I was.
20 Q With respect to the gentleman who overdosed
21 on LSD, just for edification purposes of the Board,
22 is it typical that it would take three doses of a
23 sedative to calm somebody like that down, or was
24 that I guess a unique circumstance where this
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1 gentleman just was raging that bad?
2 A I would, without going too much into the
3 medical aspect of it, I'm trying to go back and
4 think if I have ever experienced it before. I
5 can't say that I have. I think that's just what
6 they needed to do.
7 I know they gave him the first dose and
8 there was no effect, and I know they gave him the
9 second dose and there was no effect. So by the
10 time they hit the third one, he actually was able
11 to calm down enough, so I think it was obviously
12 pretty necessary.
13 Q And again, you testified earlier, just to
14 confirm for the record, there were no other calls
15 that evening that you responded to, correct?
16 A Correct. No other calls after that one,
17 correct.
18 Q We received a replete medical treatment
19 history beginning March 10th. I just have a few
20 questions for you.
21 A Okay.
22 Q In the records in your testimony today you
23 indicated that for a period of time you started to
24 feel better. You took the doctors for face value
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1 that it was a lumbar strain. Is there anything
2 that you can personally recall that occurred, aside
3 from this call, when you started to feel better,
4 that could have made the pain get worse?
5 A No. During that time, even when that brief
6 time I went back to the road, I wasn't involved in
7 any other physical altercations. There were no
8 other intermediate calls that would have
9 precipitated that.
10 Obviously, I was very aware of it, so I
11 was pretty cautious and watching for it. There was
12 nothing else in my personal life that would have
13 triggered or aggravated any issue.
14 Q No bad bowling balls?
15 A No bad bowling balls. And to this day, add
16 that to the list of things that I cannot do. I'm
17 not even going to try that one.
18 Q With respect to the medical treatment that
19 you've received, this has been all through Workers'
20 Compensation, or some of it on your own personal --
21 A No. In my referral that I referenced
22 before, I should say, to the battle with work comp
23 to get the hip MRI, they denied it. They would not
24 approve that for whatever reason. So I ended up
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1 going on my normal insurance. I think I paid $150
2 bucks or something like that for it.
3 Q But the rest of the medical treatment
4 you've received has been through Workers'
5 Compensation, correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And did you undergo an Independent Medical
8 Evaluation for Workers' Compensation before Dr.
9 Hsu?
10 A Yes. That was in July. I believe in July,
11 work comp sent me to their independent doctors, so
12 I met with them.
13 Q And are you receiving any ongoing treatment
14 for your back at this juncture?
15 A No.
16 MS. GOODLOE: I don't have any further
17 questions. I think most of my questions have
18 already been answered.
19 The Board at this juncture has the
20 opportunity as individual Trustees to ask
21 Mr. Lumber any questions that you may have. I
22 don't know if anybody had any questions?
23 BY MR. SETTLES:
24 Q Mr. Lumber, has there been any discussion
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1 with the McHenry Police Department regarding
2 potential full-time opportunity for light duty?
3 A Not that I'm aware of. It's never been
4 there, it's never been brought to my attention, so
5 I had no indication whatsoever that that's even
6 considered.
7 Q So you haven't asked and they haven't
8 offered?
9 A No. I haven't asked for sure, and there
10 has never been anything, and they have not shown an
11 interest in creating that or brought up to me.
12 BY MR. CLESEN:
13 Q I have two questions. I think in your line
14 of questioning before, you were talking about the
15 physical fitness exams like the power exams when
16 you first got hired. Was there an actual medical
17 physical exam that was presented to the Pension
18 Board at that time that cleared you to be hired?
19 Like did you go to a physical before being hired?
20 A Did I go to get a physical before being
21 hired?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Yeah, I believe so.
24 Q He was asking questions about if you had
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1 like a physical fitness exam like the power test?
2 A Yes.
3 Q I don't think you covered if you had gotten
4 an actual medical physical exam?
5 A Yes.
6 Q The only other question is do you remember
7 anything during the incident itself while it was
8 going on of you turned one way, you went one way,
9 or anything that indicated you felt like that was
10 the point that you had been injured, or was it the
11 totality of the entire incident?
12 A I had no problems. I didn't feel any pain
13 at all. There was never a moment during this thing
14 where I lurched out in pain or anything like that.
15 I never felt bad. I didn't have that aha moment
16 when it was happening.
17 Even when I got back to the Police
18 Department, I didn't really sense anything. And
19 then it wasn't until four hours later whenever that
20 really happened.
21 MR. CLESEN: That's all I had.
22 BY MS. KRANZ:
23 Q I just have one question. She asked great
24 questions, so I think she asked most of them. But
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1 you mentioned something about having surgery on
2 your ankle; is that correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q What was that surgery from?
5 A That was from 25 years of abuse to a bad
6 ankle. And I played a lot of basketball as a kid.
7 And when I went to college, it was the dorm I was
8 in had free access to the YMCA in Milwaukee, so I
9 would go down and twist it all the time.
10 So it was just over the course of a
11 long period of time that we would have pickup games
12 with basketball here with people and I would roll
13 it. So it was an accumulation of a lot of beating
14 on that ankle.
15 And then in the late summer of '13, I
16 twisted it really bad, and I just thought this is
17 the time that I need to get it looked at. So I
18 went in. And it wasn't a full reconstruction, but
19 it was a pretty significant surgery.
20 Q I mean not from the doctor, but was that
21 disclosed to the doctor? Was the doctor notified
22 of something like that?
23 A I'm sorry?
24 Q When you had your exam, or when you were
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1 hired before at the police station, do you have to
2 disclose that, that you had that injury?
3 A I don't think that I -- I don't remember.
4 I don't specifically remember, but I can tell you
5 going back to about '94, it was never an acute
6 issue with that ankle; it was just a weak ankle
7 over the years. So I don't know that I even
8 thought to disclose it.
9 I was never asked about it, and it
10 wasn't such a persistent thing that it was really
11 giving me trouble. It was just a weak ankle, so
12 any time you do something and roll, it was going to
13 pop.
14 MS. GOODLOE: Mr. Lumber, do you have any
15 questions?
16 MR. LUMBER: No.
17 MS. GOODLOE: All right. Mr. Quilty,
18 redirect?
19 MR. QUILTY: No.
20 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. Any other witnesses?
21 MR. QUILTY: No.
22 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. The Pension Board does
23 not have any witnesses at this time.
24 Mr. Quilty, would you like to make a
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1 closing argument?
2 MR. QUILTY: Yes, just real briefly. It's
3 a short session.
4 Counsel let you know what the
5 categories of what has to be proven and what has to
6 be shown. And any time you have a case where you
7 have these type of injuries, specifically, a
8 degenerative back, are always the type, because I
9 think all of us, at least I know at my age is you
10 get, it's the proverbial wake up in the morning and
11 things are sore. And you know something is wrong
12 when you get older and you wake up in the morning
13 and nothing is sore and you're thinking there's
14 some problem here.
15 Not to make light of it, but what
16 happens when you have degenerative changes, it's
17 just what happens when you get old; the body just
18 starts breaking down. And some of us are very
19 lucky that we never have to experience the pain
20 besides the normal soreness where you take Advil or
21 Tylenol.
22 You have an event. What usually will
23 cause it triggers it. The back that doesn't look
24 good on X-Rays or an MRI, all of a sudden someone
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1 has so much pain.
2 And you see it. Obviously we all know
3 about it, we've had friends, or we've experienced
4 it ourselves where you have a car accident where
5 all of a sudden you go, my God, that hurts all the
6 time.
7 Well, this is what we have here. We
8 have an incident. And I think Bob is extremely
9 honest, because he doesn't say yeah, I remember
10 when I was twisting and wrestling with this guy, I
11 felt something, but he didn't. He just said I woke
12 up in the morning and this is what I went through.
13 And when you go through all the
14 treatment, and I know sometimes it can be mundane,
15 and what I do, I try to get all the dates to make
16 it easier for everybody. But he had a lot of
17 treatment. And you can tell like many other type
18 back injuries, you go and you say I'll take some
19 aspirin; three or four days it goes away. It
20 didn't. And he continued.
21 And I've always, since I've been doing
22 these type of cases for 25 years, one of the
23 significant things I always looked at is somebody
24 who goes out and looks to talk to another doctor.
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1 You know, we always hear the
2 commercials, always seek a second opinion, always
3 go for a second opinion.
4 And as you guys know that work for the
5 department, you have to go to Occupational Health.
6 They tell you who to go to. And I see many of my
7 clients, to all of them I'll say go talk to
8 somebody else that will make you feel better. You
9 know, go see somebody else. Well, Bob did that.
10 And everybody's given the same opinion. And even
11 on the Independent Medical Exams, one doctor says
12 well, I would recommend he have this other test
13 done. Well, those tests were done.
14 Dr. Shapiro said let's do a CT-scan in
15 the spring, March of 2021, and let's do an MRI to
16 see if we can find out what is causing this pain
17 that you have that's radiating into the buttocks.
18 And when that showed nothing, in Dr. Shapiro's eyes
19 that should cause that type of pain, he said let's
20 go get your hip checked.
21 So we have a culmination of all this
22 since March 9th and March 10th really is when he
23 sought treatment where Bob is trying to search
24 where we can get to eliminate the pain; you know,
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1 where it can stop.
2 What it resulted in was Dr. Shapiro
3 told him, signed a certificate and said you can't
4 do this any more. It's just you want to. You'd
5 love to get back. You'd love to have a situation
6 where you had surgery and everything is perfect,
7 but frankly, it usually works this way. Once you
8 have a fusion on the back, you're done.
9 Even without the pain he still
10 experiences, even if he had a perfect recovery,
11 being able to go out and do that job, support a
12 partner and be able to run, tackle, fight, or
13 whatever the job requires, even without what he's
14 experiencing now, he couldn't do it. And the
15 doctors have indicated such.
16 And I would ask that through the
17 testimony and the exhibits you've read, that you
18 award Bob the line of duty disability pension.
19 Thank you.
20 MS. GOODLOE: Thank you, Mr. Quilty.
21 At this juncture the Board has three
22 options. If the Board is ready to either
23 deliberate in open session or make a motion, one of
24 the Trustees can do so.
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1 Pursuant to 2(c)(4) of the Open
2 Meetings Act, upon a motion, the Board could
3 adjourn into executive session to deliberate as to
4 the evidence and testimony received today. Or, if
5 the Board needs more opportunity to review the
6 record and the transcript, we could always adjourn
7 the proceedings for today and reconvene at a later
8 date and time.
9 MR. SETTLES: I move we go into executive
10 session.
11 MR. CLESEN: And I second.
12 MS. GOODLOE: All in favor?
13 (ALL said aye.)
14 MS. GOODLOE: And we'll be going off of the
15 open session record at 10:23. Thank you.
16 (There was a discussion held off
17 the record, after which the
18 hearing resumed as follows:)
19 MS. GOODLOE: Motion to go back into open
20 session?
21 MS. KRANZ: I'll make a motion to go back
22 into open session.
23 MR. FOERSTER: And I'll second.
24 MS. GOODLOE: All in favor?
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1 (All said aye.)
2 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. It is 10:44. We're
3 back in open session in the Lumber disability
4 matter.
5 The Board has convened in executive
6 session and is now prepared to make a motion with
7 respect to your claim.
8 MR. CLESEN: I'll make a motion that we
9 accept the disability pension as applied.
10 MS. KRANZ: I'll second.
11 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. We'll do a roll call
12 vote. Kranz?
13 MS. KRANZ: Yes.
14 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Settles?
15 MR. SETTLES: Yes.
16 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Foerster?
17 MR. FOERSTER: Yes.
18 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Clesen?
19 MR. CLESEN: Yes.
20 MS. GOODLOE: Trustee Beaudoin?
21 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes.
22 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. Congratulations, Mr.
23 Lumber.
24 MR. LUMBER: Thank you very much.
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1 MS. GOODLOE: Your disability pension has
2 been granted.
3 Given the fact that your age is 50, you
4 are not required to undergo any sort of annual
5 medical reevaluations for disability pension
6 purposes.
7 Myself and Mr. Foerster will work on
8 getting the requisite calculations prepared and
9 getting you into pay status.
10 Do you guys utilize Lauterbach and Amen
11 for that?
12 MR. FOERSTER: Yes.
13 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. It looks like those
14 have already been prepared. What we'll do is go
15 ahead and finalize these, and we will hopefully get
16 you into pay status December payroll.
17 MR. LUMBER: Okay.
18 MR. FOERSTER: Yes. That should be not a
19 problem.
20 MR. LUMBER: So today is officially my last
21 day?
22 MR. FOERSTER: Right it will start the
23 17th. It will be tomorrow.
24 MS. GOODLOE: Okay.
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1 MR. LUMBER: Well, I thank you all.
2 I can tell you this. It's not how I
3 wanted to end my career; that's for sure. You
4 know, unfortunately, it is what it is.
5 I very much rue to the fact that I will
6 be able to -- I love being in my squad car. I love
7 my car. That's where my happy place was. And that
8 I'm not going to have an opportunity to take one
9 last ride through town and reminisce.
10 MR. FOERSTER: Oh, you still can.
11 MR. LUMBER: The minute I do --
12 So I thank you all very much. I
13 appreciate your time.
14 MS. GOODLOE: We're going to go ahead and
15 vote to approve these calculations because they are
16 right in front of us.
17 MR. QUILTY: Okay. Whatever you want to
18 do.
19 MS. GOODLOE: So we'll note for the record
20 that again, Mr. Lumber's date of hire is 7/29/94.
21 His date of disability is December 16th, 2021, with
22 an effective disability pension beginning
23 December 17th, 2021. His annual salary is
24 $112,331.33. He has 27 years credible service.
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1 His initial monthly benefit is going to be
2 $6,318.64. His prorated benefit will be $3,057.41.
3 And he is retiring on disability as a Sergeant.
4 Is there a motion to approve the
5 disability pension calculations for Mr. Lumber?
6 MR. FOERSTER: Motion to approve.
7 MS. GOODLOE: Is there a second?
8 MS. KRANZ: I'll second.
9 MS. GOODLOE: Let's do a roll call vote.
10 MR. CLESEN: Can we have a discussion for a
11 minute?
12 MS. GOODLOE: Oh, sorry. Yes, sure.
13 MR. CLESEN: If for some reason, I know the
14 on-line calculation has that little asterisk that
15 they can't confirm. For some reason, if there is a
16 math error in here, can we come back later to
17 correct it?
18 MS. GOODLOE: So we'll vote to approve it
19 subject to finalization. How about that?
20 MR. CLESEN: Got it. Thank you.
21 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. So who made the
22 motion?
23 MR. FOERSTER: I did.
24 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. And is there a second?
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1 MS. KRANZ: Second.
2 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. Roll call. Kranz?
3 MS. KRANZ: Yes.
4 MS. GOODLOE: Settles?
5 MR. SETTLES: Yes.
6 MS. GOODLOE: Foerster?
7 MR. FOERSTER: Yes.
8 MS. GOODLOE: Clesen?
9 MR. CLESEN: Yes.
10 MS. GOODLOE: Beaudoin?
11 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes.
12 MS. GOODLOE: Okay. What I'm going to do
13 is prepare a written Decision and Order that will
14 be the final and appealable Decision in this claim.
15 The Board is going to have to subsequently approve
16 that decision. Once it's served upon you, then the
17 administrative review process begins.
18 I do not ascertain there being any sort
19 of appeal on this matter. The Village didn't need
20 to intervene.
21 MR. QUILTY: Okay.
22 MS. GOODLOE: So that will be forthcoming
23 probably early 2022. Okay?
24 MR. LUMBER: Do you send that to the city
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1 for my insurance application?
2 MS. GOODLOE: I can if you'd like?
3 MR. LUMBER: Yes, if you can, please.
4 MR. FOERSTER: Can we get to that in the
5 meeting on the 12th?
6 MS. GOODLOE: Of January? You're the fifth
7 decision I have, but I will just for you guys try
8 to get that done by January 12th.
9 Is there a motion to adjourn?
10 MR. CLESEN: I'll make that motion.
11 MR. FOERSTER: Second.
12 MS. GOODLOE: All in favor?
13 (All said aye.)
14 MS. GOODLOE: And we're adjourned at 10:49.
15
16
17 (Which were all the proceedings
18 taken at the hearing of the
19 above-entitled cause.)
20
21
22
23
24
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1 STATE OF ILLINOIS)
) SS.
2 COUNTY OF DU PAGE)
3
4 I, GLORIA APOSTOLOS SIOLIDIS, C.S.R., duly
5 qualified and commissioned for the State of Illinois,
6 County of DuPage, do hereby certify that I reported
7 in shorthand the proceedings had and testimony
8 taken at the Hearing of the above-entitled cause,
9 and that the foregoing transcript is a true, correct,
10 and complete report of the entire testimony so
11 taken at the time and place hereinabove set forth.
12
13
14
15 <%28183,Signature%>
GLORIA APOSTOLOS SIOLIDIS
16 CSR License #084-001205
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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imes 61:3
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j
j 1:4,22,24 3:17
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keen 66:10
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oath 8:10
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oh 21:20 90:10
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old 9:2 13:15
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ones 14:19
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pack 29:19 30:13
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people 25:24
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